Speaker You’re listening to Allied Health Podcast, talking all things Allied Health with your hosts, Danielle Weedon, physiotherapist, and Clare Jones, occupational therapist.
Clare Jones Welcome back to Allied Health Podcast. In this episode, Danielle talks with Kathryn Clare, exercise and sports science graduate, as well as a recent 2020 physiotherapy graduate working in paediatric disability in Perth. Kathryn discusses her journey, defining her graduate role in such a niche sector, waiting for the right role, weighing up factors such as relocation and clinical speciality, and managing transition to practice. Best of all, she loves working in her first paediatric role.
Danielle Weedon Today, I’m here with Kathryn Clare, 2020 graduate, talking to us about working in paediatric disability. Hi, Kathryn. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?
Kathryn Clare Sure! So I am a physiotherapist and exercise sports scientist, originally from regional south west Victoria, but came to Perth to study physio and have stayed. And so currently living, living in Perth and graduating from Curtin University, as you said, at the end of last year. So I’m currently working for an organisation called Visibility, which, as you say, is a disability organisation here in Perth that deals predominantly with people who may have low to no vision or cortical blindness as well. So working majorly in a paediatric caseload. Working with kids and adolescents who have got low to no vision or blindness, and other associated disabilities as well.
Danielle Weedon Yeah, and I know I’ve sent you some questions that we will ask, but was that an area you thought you’d find yourself working in or how did you…’cause it’s such a niche area?
Kathryn Clare, absolutely not. I love telling this story, really. So prior to studying physio, I worked for a regional hospital in South West Victoria as a physio assistant in neurological [?] rehab. So on the other end of the spectrum in geriatrics, and absolutely loved it. I knew that that’s exactly what I wanted to do and loved oldies and wanted to work in the neuro rehab space and was like, No, that’s it, that’s it for me and you had of asked me in my first few years of uni if I wanted to work in paeds, I would have gone no way, don’t want to work with kids. Everyone else can have paeds jobs. I don’t want them – give me oldies. And then I did my paeds unit and found it really easy. I’m a big kid myself, so I found it something that just came really naturally. Yeah, and my tutor tapped me on the shoulder and she’s like, Have you thought about a career in paeds? And I said, Absolutely not. That’s not for me. She goes, I think you should reconsider because it comes so naturally to you and you do quite well in it. And I was like, All right, I’ll put it on a preference list for my prac and I’ll see what happens. And I was really lucky to get a prac at Perth Children’s Hospital, which is a tertiary paediatric centre here in WA. And that experience there changed my life around paeds, and you had to drag me out of there kicking and screaming on my last day. I was a blubbering mess. I didn’t want to leave. It really solidified that ok, I should do working with kids, and kids are where it’s at for me. So yeah, it’s a bit of a [?]
Danielle Weedon Okay, I can imagine. And did you do that placement in your final year or your third year?
Kathryn Clare In my final year. Yeah, that was my last clinical placement.
Danielle Weedon Yep, yep, yep. And so what’s your experience to date? Sort of eight months in, I suppose, to your graduate year?
Kathryn Clare Yeah, so far it’s been a really beautiful experience, getting out into the community and working with the families that I work with, seeing how they navigate the challenges that they have been given with their kids that have got a disability and some of them vary in severity, some of them a GMSCS Level 5, so they’re really quite disabled. Some of them are quite able, then have something called albinism, where physically they’re fine, it’s just their blindness that limits them and seeing how they navigate these challenges, as well as caring for other kids in the family, working jobs, dealing with the pandemic, dealing with life and house renovations. And all that comes with it, and seeing how well they just press on and get on with it and see the light in their lives. That has been just such a really touching experience for me and has really solidified that this is the space that I want to be in and these are the clients that I want to be working with as well. So from that perspective, it’s been a really beautiful experience and one that I’m really lucky to have coming into it as well, especially as my first role.
Danielle Weedon Yeah, I can imagine it’s challenging as a graduate as well. You know, if you’re working purely in private practice, you know, musculoskeletal, yes physios are always holistic, but you’re not necessarily managing all of your, if you want to call them stakeholders, where you’re managing caregivers, you’re managing parents, you’re managing schools. Like all of that. Yeah, it’s complex as a as a graduate, would you say?
Kathryn Clare Absolutely complex. You’re constantly spinning plates and having to think about 10 different things at once. And as you say, private practice musculoskeletal, you – a patient comes in with an ankle or a knee injury, and that’s your kind of primary focus. But here, we’re a multidisciplinary team. We’re looking at a number of different avenues and thinking about how they all intertwine together as well. And so managing that, managing a growing child, managing a family, managing schooling, managing developmental milestones, the whole gamut and looking at the future as well. For this child, it’s not just you get into a netball game at the end of the season, it’s you’re setting this child up for life, really. So it definitely is complex. And there are some times where my head spins and I go, I don’t know where to start. But the beauty of these families is that they get it. They get it’s hard. They get that it’s complex and a lot of them are quite chilled out about it. And go, you know what, it’s OK. We’ll work on one thing or we’re working on sleep or working on positioning or we’re working on whatever it is and we’ll get to the other stuff eventually. We’re not going anywhere.
Danielle Weedon Yeah, yeah. Do you think, I’ve got a bit off script again as I do, but do you also think that having your other undergrad degree and being slightly more, you’re definitely not mature age, but for having that other experience, how do you think that’s helped with the caseload?
Kathryn Clare Absolutely, absolutely. So for those who aren’t really familiar with the sport science side of things, being able to learn how a fundamental motor skill is broken down, so something like a run, a jump, a kick, how it’s broken down into really small bite sized pieces has been so helpful and what that should look like in an able bodied child and how that looks like in a disabled child and where we can find the balance of the two has been really helpful. And also in helping me kind of think creatively and think outside my box in terms of my therapy and making things not sport specific, but how can I take these principles that I know from a sporting background and bring them into a therapy space, then give these children who may not ever have the opportunity to play football, to play in organised sport, give them that experience still, and tailor it to them, has really been so helpful. And then in the middle ground between my two degrees where I was working has just escalated my communication levels as well, and it’s something I’m so grateful to have, to be there.
Danielle Weedon Yeah, we do talk a lot to grads about other employment experience or other studying experience and those other skill sets that you do bring to a graduate role. But I wouldn’t even call them softer skillsets. But all of you, you know, all of the experience that you have in other positions, you really can relate that to your role as a grad.
Kathryn Clare Yeah, definitely.
Danielle Weedon OK, so what was your experience like finding a job?
Kathryn Clare So it’s a bit of a tough one for me, I’m not going to sugarcoat it at all. So with my previous experience working in a hospital space, then I was really lucky enough… Predominant amount of my practice to be hospital based as well. I knew that that was the space I wanted to work in. However, as I’m sure we’re all aware, it’s a really competitive space and one that is really challenging to break into. Over here in WA, all the public metro hospitals is pool based, so the pool opens once, maybe twice a year. And then if you’re accepted into the pool any positions are employed out of the pool. So if you miss that, that cut-off and you have to be registered in order to apply and all the hurdles that you jump through, you’re waiting 12 months until the pool opens again. And then in the private space, the private hospital space is very much a who you know game rather than a what you know game. And so I was lucky enough to work in metro hospitals that were tertiary based. So they were the public hospital system, but not in the private hospital system. So I was really an outsider in that as well. So I found it really challenging to break in. But I was also in a space where my family lived in Victoria and on the East Coast. I’m on the West Coast. I’m keeping my options open and happy to go to either end of the country really and applied a really wide net and allowed myself about three months to really have a break to begin with, and focus on trying to break into that hospital system. And in that three months did a lot of interviews, had a lot of interview practice. Some of those interviews were great, some of them were in the back seat of my car on a 40 degree day here in Perth.
Danielle Weedon Not so good!
Kathryn Clare But the experience and the practice I got in interviewing was really helpful. Regardless if it was a positive or negative experience, and I got a lot of really useful feedback as well, which I became a little bit obsessed, you could say, with hunting down feedback of, all right, what can I work on? What can I do better? What did the person who got the job have that I didn’t have? And really became quite focussed on that.
Danielle Weedon Do you know Kathryn, I’m sorry to interrupt, but we would, we just recorded another episode, and I think that is key as a grad to make sure you get feedback because I think you’re going to need it in your grad year and in your, whenever you go for another job. I think to shy away from what went wrong is is is not a smart idea. So I think it’s great to get all the feedback you can.
Kathryn Clare Yeah, it’s definitely an ego buster, that’s for sure! But yeah, any feedback is good feedback and I’ve really honed into it and was like, This is my opportunity to talk with these people. And for some of them, it was the Royal Children’s in Melbourne, and the fact that I had the ability to get feedback on my application from them, that was really useful, was so helpful for me. But at the end of those three months, I wasn’t really getting anywhere and I was starting to get a bit antsy with where I was professionally and the fact that I hadn’t worked clinically yet. Started to expand my horizons to different sectors, while still keeping an eye on the hospital space. And a friend of mine who’s also a physio reached out to me after I put a bit of a disappointing status up on social media that I was complaining that I didn’t have a job yet. She got in touch, indicating that her workplace is looking to add another physio to their team. And I spoke with her, I did a little bit of my research on my own and found that it was potentially a good fit for me. So I popped an application in and it went well and I was really grateful to be offered the position during my interview. Both parties, it looked like it was a good fit and it so far is.
Danielle Weedon You’ve had a really good first eight months and I think it’s, well, the whole concept of networking. It doesn’t always come that easy to health professionals. I don’t know if that’s right to say, but I think networking and, is always so important. So really reaching, even though you said the physio you know saw a post that you put on social media, I think that’s the other reason to even get feedback from interviews that you’re not successful in or, you know, keep in touch with clinical supervisors that you might have had a good experience with because you actually never know. It’s a pretty small world, the allied health world, and that’s exactly how you ended up finding a job.
Kathryn Clare Exactly, and as you say, keeping in touch with those clinical supervisors, they became my referees at the end of the day and even after securing a job, one of them has become my mentor now and being able to pick her brain – she’s currently doing a PhD, so I pick her brain and also offer my services up for her, whether it’s babysitting or helping collect data or anything like that. Especially over here in Perth, it is like a big country town, so it is quite a small space. But keep those networks and keep those people in your, in your back pocket because that’s how you will build your network. Like initially, networking is really hard because are so many of us, it seems. But then as you start to get into employment, you find your circle becomes a lot smaller and it’s people that you know and you meet people at courses and through different avenues.
Danielle Weedon Yeah, exactly. And so what did you find helpful when securing employment?
Kathryn Clare Having multiple people read over my application. I’m not sure if you can tell, but I’m very much a creative writer and a creative talker. I’m not very [?] And using the resources that my university had available through their careers centre. We’d done a few careers days as physios. I’ve got some really great tips and tricks and tools and things from there in terms of showing my personality, but having a few people read over my application and go, Yes, show your personality in this section, but really concise this section and draw it down, really helped me take what was essentially a four page application letter to a one page letter. Those things are so important, especially when the other end of someone who’s hiring is going through 30-50 applications. Having a nice, easy to read application is certainly key. It puts you leaps and bounds ahead of anybody else. Also, once I had secured employment, having someone with a bit of experience read over my contract and terms, even though, as you say, I have worked before in a full time capacity and and a little bit of a mature age graduate, I had my dad who’s a teacher of business and legal studies and accounting look over my contract and going, All right, this is essentially what you’re signing. Does that work for you? If not, see if you can negotiate things as well. And he also helped me negotiate my my contract terms as well in terms of salary expectations because I was put into a position where the company I work for had the ability to negotiate with me, which I’ve never been in before, and being asked what my salary expectations were straight off the bat, I was like, a cup of coffee a day, really like I’m happy to get any job. But he helped me see my other qualification and the experience that I had, and knew that was an asset and helped me negotiate that into my contract as well, which turned out quite well.
Danielle Weedon Yeah, excellent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what advice would you offer a new grad to secure employment?
Kathryn Clare I’ve…this is probably where I can share so much of my experience and know what your non-negotiables are in terms of a workplace. Know what you’re willing to to negotiate on in terms of maybe it’s caseload, maybe it’s culture, maybe it’s working hours or contracts, things like that. Know what you’re willing to negotiate on and know what you’re willing to not negotiate on and be prepared to ask questions in the interview. For me, I had some hard and fast questions in every interview that I asked, and it was a way of me knowing what the workplace culture was like. So going through the start of the pandemic as as a student and seeing multiple different workplaces navigate that as well as my own workplace. So asking how did the organisation support its staff during COVID and during lockdowns and things like that? Seeing how that answer came out really told me a lot about who they put their value on and how they value their staff and whether their staff are willing to work through a pandemic and still come out with them at the other end. That was a really important one for me, but also looking at turnover and retention rate of staff is people coming into an organisation and staying for for a longer time and then moving on for career progression? Or is it a constant revolving door? And if it is, why are people leaving? Is it a culture thing? Is it just that it’s not the right fit? Is it a managerial problem? So finding out those things really tells you a lot about what a workplace culture is like. And for me, that’s really important because I spend a lot of my time at work. Yeah, and I need to know that that was the right fit for me, in terms of the people that I was going to be working with. Especially for new grads that have come straight from school. If your workplace is a predominantly older workplace, there may be a bit of a mismatch or you may struggle in building relationships and connections with the people that you’re working with. If you don’t, if you come from two generations, though, that can be really helpful as well. But just knowing what you want out of a workplace and being prepared to ask, yeah, and additionally not taking the first job that’s offered to you. I know that for me, there’s this overwhelming pressure of I’m not going to find a job or someone was willing to take a chance on me. I need to kind of grip that with both hands and a lot of people I’ve spoken to, that I’ve graduated with, have kind of done that and realised now eight months down the track that maybe wasn’t the wisest decision for them and that they are now in a situation where they don’t enjoy where they’re working and they don’t enjoy physio, which is a real shame. Yeah, especially when they worked so hard, four years into the degree to come out at this point and say, yeah, being prepared to say no and knowing that in health care there will always be a job, you’ll always find a job. Don’t stress about that.
Danielle Weedon Yeah, I think as well in your grad year, I think that knowing that you’ve got the right supports in place, probably the biggest key for any grad role and success in a grad role. And you know, it doesn’t even have to be that – I spoke to a graduate speechie in one of the episodes for this podcast series, and Daniela knew that she wanted to work in a community NDIS setting and now she specialised in paeds within this first year. But she knew she wanted the autonomy of a community role, but she also knew that she needed to make sure that the company she is now working for and chose to work for, had the supports in place for a grad to work in that environment. So she… I don’t think that… I don’t think necessarily even if you are in an autonomous working environment that you can’t have support, especially all the virtual supports that are set up now.
Kathryn Clare Yeah, absolutely.
Danielle Weedon And like you, she also said, she also said, the top, she had top, she had three top things that she knew she wanted in a role and they were her non-negotiables. And I think you’re right, if you just set what are your non-negotiables, and then the other stuff you can manage around what job offers you get in.
Kathryn Clare Yeah, absolutely.
Danielle Weedon And what were your first few months of practice like? How would you describe the first few months of clinical practice being a professional physiotherapist?
Kathryn Clare Yeah, initially really daunting. Is a real adjustment period of wrapping my head around the fact that I no longer had a supervisor looking over my shoulder and questioning my decisions, but also marking me. That my supervisor had now gone from an authoritative figure to a colleague and someone who I could confide in and really lean into and rely on a lot of the time rather than, in some ways, be scared of. So I was initially really daunted about that and then also navigating the mountain that is the NDIS and everything that comes with that. And so understanding what that looks like and taking, learning, you know, all this new information when I’m still trying to wrap my head around the four years of study that I’ve gone through, however, my organisation that I work for has really let me run at my pace and let me, and supported me really well and really thoroughly in those first few months of shadowing visits and observational visits. And let me run at the pace that I felt comfortable with and then allowed me to kind of spread my wings and fly in a really supportive way as well. So utilising other multidisciplinary team members, being able to see what they’re doing, how they can influence physio, and physio can influence them and how we can work together. I had a lot of clinical supervision meetings in the first probably three months, and where I would just sit down with my supervisor and go, this works well, this didn’t work well, this is what I’m feeling, I’m feeling overwhelmed or I’m feeling pretty good and ready to go, or these are gaps of knowledge that I have, and I don’t know where to start. Something like standing frames, which you barely touch on in uni, and then especially in the paediatric disability space, it’s front and centre and going, I don’t know what I’m doing kinda thing. It was daunting, but it’s, I felt really supported. Really, really, I don’t know what the word is that felt like I could actually do the job and do the role and feel like I’m working as a physio.
Danielle Weedon Kind of empowered, like supported but empowered to do the job as a physio. Yeah, that’s interesting. Yeah. And what, what’s one of the main challenges or what are some of the challenges as a grad that you found?
Kathryn Clare Yeah. So I think one thing that is quite synonymous across all allied health professionals or a majority of allied health professionals is imposter syndrome. So feeling like you don’t know you can actually do the job or that you’re not qualified enough or that you don’t have the skills or there’s other people that are a lot more skilled than you and they deserve the role, not you. Battling that mental game is something that I deal with daily. And even now, eight months down the track, even though I’ve gotten a lot more comfort in my role and feel a lot more comfortable in my space, some days I still go, I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t know if I know if I can do this. So that’s definitely one big challenge and…
Danielle Weedon How did you manage that anxiety? How would you say you manage those challenges? I think you said it before, you sort of putting your hand up and saying, Do you know what? I don’t know. I don’t know anything yet about standing frames in the paediatric space or what’s available.
Kathryn Clare Yeah. Being quite open and honest with myself, first and foremost, and I can sometimes be a fake it till you make it kind of person, but I had to really break down that guard and be honest with myself and go, All right. These are the holes in my knowledge. I’ve got a team of resources around me, so I need to now utilise that and and find out what I don’t know, essentially. And they were great. My supervisor and colleagues and clinical lead and everyone else has been wonderful in helping give me that knowledge or showing me where to find that knowledge. And it’s something that I’m still building on. But also a lot of self-reflection. Self-reflection, the process, that doesn’t end once prac is finished, unfortunately, for any students who are listening! But looking back at situations both positive and negative, then going, All right, what worked well, what could I change the next time? How did I feel during that? What are the feelings that I’m feeling because of an external stimulus? Or is it something that I can change myself, and really just looking back at situations and thinking about them and going, all right, what might I do differently next time? And whether that’s debriefing in the car on the way home, whether that’s in a supervision meeting, whether that’s just talking to a colleague at lunch time going, Oh, I have this time and this happened, that debrief as well has been really, really helpful.
Danielle Weedon Yeah. Do you know what? We probably should all do that on lots of levels of our lives ongoing anyway, right? And also that, do you know, I think, Kathryn, I mean, I graduated years ago, but even grads I speak to now, and for me, I really think that, you know, your clients or your patients, they don’t mind, if you say, you know what, I don’t know that just now, but I’m going to go and find it. I’m going to find the information. I’m going to speak to my, you know, my clinical supervisor in the business. I’m going to speak to a specialist and I’ll get back to you. I don’t think people mind that honesty at all.
Kathryn Clare Absolutely. That is, that is one thing that I learnt through my placements at uni is being upfront and honest and saying, actually, I don’t know, but not saying oh I dunno and just kind of forgetting about it, but showing that you’ve got the dedication to turn around and go, look I don’t know that answer, but let me ask someone, let me find out, I’ll get back to you. Showing that humility that you’ve got as well.
Danielle Weedon Yep, yep. And I’m not sure whether we might have covered this already, but what was most helpful in your transition to practice?
Kathryn Clare I love a spreadsheet, I’m a big spreadsheet fan. So creating one that had all my client’s diagnoses and details and NDIS plan information and what their goals were. Details around what therapy they had received and what they enjoyed. Their goals, hobbies, things like that. Compiling that into one space so that it’s a big mental dump for me. And that continually gets updated and now is a giant database of information. But for me, being able to just put it all on paper so I can look at it in clear black and white, and go, all right, these are where my ducks are at, and this is where I need to have them be, or this is what we’re working towards or things like that. That’s definitely been one really helpful piece, is taking it out of my head and putting it on paper.
Danielle Weedon Yeah yeah, and knowing that it’s organised there and you can access that there when you need to, when you need to [?]
Kathryn Clare Yeah, yeah. So that’s one kind of practical tool that’s been helpful. Another tool has been, we take, we have all this knowledge as allied health professionals in knowing how to appraise research and look at data and things like that. But actually translating that into a clinical setting is a real big challenge. And how do we communicate what we know and what we’ve learnt and what we’ve figured out through research. How do we give that information in a package that our clients can use and find worthy. And if I can do a little bit of a another plug of another podcast, there’s a podcast called The ResearchWorks podcast, which is based here in WA, which takes emerging data for paediatric care, simplifies it into a layperson’s terms and then helps you utilise that data in your everyday, in your everyday clients. Whether it’s visual loss, whether it’s CP, whether it’s emotional states in muscular dystrophy or anything like that, it’s a really broad and in such a snatch up tool that I love listening to on my way to clients.
Danielle Weedon Oh, that’s interesting. So does it give you, does it give you the information in lay terms to be able to pass on to your clients or what’s that?
Kathryn Clare So the way it’s kind of set up is that Dayna and Ashleigh are the two hosts, and they’ll have someone come in who’s written a piece, written a paper or done a journal article and they’ll explain it in a scientific term, and then they have this like 60 second snapshot at the end, when that person explains the piece of research to someone, to their sound engineer who has no idea about anything medical related or health related and breaks it down for them. And then he asks a question or two to help clarify. And it’s usually that 60 seconds where I take the most out…
Danielle Weedon Yeah, I can imagine.
Kathryn Clare …of the whole 20-30 minute podcast.
Danielle Weedon Yeah, interesting. So being organised, so your spreadsheet, and making sure that you’ve got everything down and that particular podcast as a, as a, yeah. Cool. And have you got any memorable moments, or a memorable event since you graduated?
Kathryn Clare Oh, so I’ve got this one little client, she’s four, and she’s a below knee amputee. And she’s such a little firecracker, that she’s been so eager to run, to the point where she actually bends the metatarsal head of her prosthesis, because she was trying to run on the walking leg. And she has just been fitted for a running leg, and seeing her the first time she put it on, basically spring up and be like a duck to water and run. And her, seeing her whole world open up and change in that split second moment was really just so touching and heartwarming, and I felt so excited that I had the opportunity to be a part of this little girl’s life. Like, we’ll see her at the Paralympics in 10 years time, I dare say 10, 20 years time. She’s that much of a firecracker. And just seeing her world change for the better has been impacting.
Danielle Weedon It’s amazing. And that’s interesting you say that, because I was thinking, I imagine lots of your clients at the moment with the Paralympics on, like it’s so inspirational. Are they, some of the kids would be too young I imagine to watch it. But are they following it?
Kathryn Clare Yes, so, they, they are. Some of them are a bit too young or they don’t really comprehend what’s going on, but especially kind of working in the visual space, something like goalball, we have as part of our organisation, they run a goalball competition and some of my clients take part in that. And so seeing that kind of on the big stage has been really motivational for them as well.
Danielle Weedon Yeah, amazing. That’s great. And so anything else you’d like to me, you’ve shared a lot and thank you for your time, but is there anything you’d [?]… any other physio grads or to health allied health graduates.
Kathryn Clare Yeah, just that you will end up where you’re supposed to be and whether that’s straight away or whether that is in 12 months time after you graduate, you will end up in a role that you love and where you want to be. I know it’s really daunting, especially if you’re halfway through your final year. And there’s a lot of, a lot of your friends have teed up jobs already and you feel like you’re behind the eight ball a lot. But they’re the minority and that your journey is your journey and you will definitely land where you’re supposed to land in whatever way, shape or form that looks like. So don’t stress about it and take a break at the end of the study as well.
Danielle Weedon It’s a good tip.
Kathryn Clare Especially if you’ve come straight from school study full time work. Take a break. Know what it’s like to be a young adult. Enjoy life before the reality of the world sets in.
Danielle Weedon Yeah, yeah, I agree. We also always say like, I don’t mean, it’s rare, and it sounds like you have, but it is rarer that you find your absolute dream job in your first year out of uni. And we always say like, your first five years, really, of your career, don’t define you. So definitely look at, you know, take to, make sure you take all the steps to make the right decisions for your graduate year. But it’s not going to define you forever, so absolutely, you’ll end up where you’re going to be. If you keep seeking out, you know, roles that you want, support that you want, advice, et cetera.
Kathryn Clare Absolutely.
Danielle Weedon Thank you for taking the time over there in WA , we’re a bit envious of you guys at the minute. I mean it, as we said before, being Melbourne based It was really nice to meet you.
Kathryn Clare Thank you so much for having me.
Danielle Weedon Pleasure, pleasure.
Speaker We hope you enjoyed listening to the Allied Health Podcast. In the show’s notes, you’ll find links to our free recruitment resources, job opportunities and health care marketplace insights. To listen to new episodes, please subscribe via Apple, Google, or wherever you find your favourite podcasts. And if you’ve enjoyed the show, please give it a five star rating and review. And be sure to tell your therapy colleagues and friends to tune in.